Project L2J-Mobius (Interlude - HighFive - Goddess of Destruction)

[Finn]

A little bit too quiet here.  :D

[jtos]

And as always unity fanclub spreading trash for Mobius.

Where's your project?

I hear that you stopped since there is no interest for L2 anymore in your team so why you kee talking about L2jmobius? 

[*real*savormix]

7 hours ago, jtos said:

And as always unity fanclub spreading trash for Mobius.

Where's your project?

I hear that you stopped since there is no interest for L2 anymore in your team so why you kee talking about L2jmobius? 

So desperate to bring attention to mobius. Also, let me fix that for you:

"there is no interest for non-single-player-box-all-7-party-chars L2 anymore in the world"

 

Someone was recently quoting how russians and/or gamecoast are opening L2 servers with TW PTS files and having a lot of people online. But anyone who plays on official servers know very well, most of the online count (potentially above 90%) is composed of dedicated fishermen (afk 24/7), shop chars (usually multiple per player to accomodate both buy/sell needs as well as store slot limits), CoC/Oly bots (kept online all the time to minimize effort), mentors (despite no longer necessary), elite clan members (for clan advent) and buff or other "macrostation" boxes.

 

The fundamental problem that L2 servers only matter as much as they matter to the potential server owners, there is no real demand from the player base. And the effect shows on all currently existent L2 serverpacks. Nobody is even trying anymore.

Edited July 7, 2018 by *real*savormix

[Gladicek]

Well, L2 is something which require lot of time and that's something what I don't have anymore. It was fun to play it with friends, when we had time for it. But currently WoW is more friendly game for me, since I can play it solo/duo. And developing latest L2 chronicle without being an active player is kinda hard job. As well L2jUnity is still an active project, but it's currently private because of leechers :)

[migueldiasster]

How is the command to summon fake players? 

[Finn]

Strg+Alt+F4

[Mobius]

In the past months I try to deal with L2j legal issues.
It is going to be a long post, but can't explain it otherwise.

 

 

GPLv3 license:
In short GPLv3 is made to protect the original author of the software but also exploit fork work.
It gives the original author the right to get back code as long as he can get his hands on fork work,
also prevents the commercial use of the software by making the original author legally able to sue against any propitiatory use of the software,
even if the work is been made by another person (committer) or the some person using it for propitiatory use (because L2j enforces GPLv3).
Reference: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html

 

So all these years we work with L2j because it is said to be "open source", but in its core, is rather not.
Truly open source projects that give their source to the public domain use permissive licenses, L2j uses a copyleft license.
Reference: https://choosealicense.com/

 

At this point the devils advocate would say that L2j deserves to use a copyleft license to get code back, because without L2j we would have nothing.
The funny thing is that L2j has rules that prevent the use of any fork work, so obtaining code by GPLv3 is never done.
As for "their work", you cannot credit specific people for a truly public domain project.
It is a fact, that in the past years, L2j has changed several leaders, teams and contributors working under GPLv3.
So their work is slave labor under the current team? What kind of "open source" project is that?
We have to thank the current L2j team, or all those people that shared their work under the false pretense of "open source"?
At the end of the day, the current team exploits all that contributions as their own, but what they actual are, is no more than privileged contributors.

 

So what if an old L2j contributor wanted to use part of his code (now licensed under GPLv3) on his own company to make propitiatory software?
At best, upon software release, he would risk to be legally enforced to share any changes he made public. An absurd act for any company.
At worst he could be sued for a ridiculous amount by using his own code. What kind of "open source" project is that?
This could prevented by changing the license to a permissive license, like MIT, but the current team seems to like GPLv3 too much.
Reference: http://www.l2jserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=32631

 

NCsoft IP:
There is no need to say that all these years we use L2j, is been told to us that using it is legal.
This claim is at best debatable. It is an undoubtable fact that Lineage 2 is intellectual property of NCsoft.
Anyone that claims using the client without modification is legal, is mentally disabled at best.
It is not what you do with the client, but how by using, the IP of that company is affected.
Lineage 2 is IP of NCsoft.

 

Why would L2j claim this then?
Remember GPLv3? L2j wants people to contribute.
Claiming that by not modifying the client you are legal, makes people think it is fine to work on it. (It is open source after all...)
It would be correct if people did not affect NCsoft's IP. But by making servers they do. That is why people mainly use L2j.

Not to mention the way that L2j does this, is by reverse engineering and extended use of hacking at best.

Passing this belief from one generation to the next, L2j tries to legalese itself.

 

At this point the devils advocate would say that I do not use L2j for commercial use, I just run it on my computer with localhosts and make stuff.
Well... you do work on emulating the IP of a company... and working on your home does not affect it.
...I will leave this as is, if you have a brain, use it to elaborate.

 

Personal concerns:
At this point if you do not feel like a fool, you are lucky, because I definitely am.
I stated working with L2j as a teenager. I was trying to find a way to create a game. Create a world of some short.
There was no other solution than L2j out there. At least not a viable solution for a beginner.
L2j claimed to be totally legal and truly open source. I felt I would work on a righteous project.
I was fooled.

 

Be legal:
My project's journey was long, I befriended with other fools and I will not step back.
I will keep supporting what I do, under the values L2j tricked us to work upon.

 

So far all the money made by this project where going to a beneficence that I personally am involved with.
The last months tho, under the legal circumstances, part of the money is spent to a new project.
It is inspired by L2j logic and what it is supposed to stand for.
It involves professional programmers making from scratch a new server base, proper, better, free and legal.

 

Getting there:
Lawyers are hired to advise what needs to be done and make the proper actions needed.
Using code from the new legal project to improve this project, or sharing with L2j, is impossible because L2j sticks to GPLv3.
There is no need to say that project leaks damage financially the new project as well.
Development is really slow, because of lack of funds (developers get payed) and me not wanting to abandon the current project.
It will probably take years to establish some solid legal release, but it will get there.
 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Mobius

[Elfo]

Welcome to open source licensing.

Your depiction of GPLv3 is at least misleading and not accurate.

 

• GPLv3 doesn't prevent the commercial usage of the software.
• GPLv3 doesn't give the original author the right to get back code but if forces the creator of new code based on that GPLv3 licensed software to make those changes public, in order to improve the original software.
• Forking GPLv3 projects is allowed as long as they are open source so the main project can benefit off of it. Projects like L2jFrozen don't violate l2j's GPLv3.
• You cannot sub-license a GPLv3 open source project, that's why acis not just violates GLPv3 in it's privation but also changing the license.
• L2j is trully opensource, at least as truly opensource as Linux with which they share the same license (well almost, Linux uses GPLv2)
• Using reversed engineered findings to build new software doesn't make this new software illegal, except if the reversed engineered code itself was used.

 

Copyleft licenses work and they are amazing when the community is not a bunch of greedy scumbags like the L2 community.

Huge companies rely on glp open source projects and they make their changes public as they should.

https://opensource.apple.com/

https://opensource.microsoft.com/

https://aws.github.io/

 

Nobody tricked you and nobody had the intention to do that. You were just a guy that wanted to profit off of l2j just like me and everyone else in here.

[Mobius]

Well... until speaking with a lawyer and some financial adviser about it, keep the bullshit to yourself.

Been the owner of L2dotNet, I strongly recommend you advising some, rather than pulling rabbits out of your hat.

I would hilariously see you on a court taking defense against NCsoft, under those pretenses.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Mobius

[*real*savormix]

It's a matter of principle. FSF and other copyleft license evangelists want to enforce both free-ness and open-ness of a platform/system/environment.

From the FSF PoV, everything that is made while having a copyleft-licensed project in mind (including those projects who do not 'use' the work in question, but, say, use knowledge about how it works to make their code more compatible and/or to make transitioning easier) is immediately a "derivative work" and that mandates this "derivative work", in its entirety, to be free and open as the "original".

Hence a lot of library authors opt for a sort of "classpath exception" (e.g. Oracle/MySQL connector) or LGPL. E.g. if you want to connect to a MySQL database using an official connector (you do not distribute the DBMS with your application nor make changes to it), it actually makes sense that your application IS NOT a "derivative work" of the DBMS and/or the connector component.

On the other hand, if it is not AGPL and you don't intend to distribute your application (only use it internally or expose via cloud), you can freely use any copyleft projects or libraries.

 

There are a lot of more reasonable licenses which would also allow you to mandate any changes made to your project to be kept public.

[Mobius]

@Savormix I totally agree with you.

I also considered to go fully free again, but it does not go anywhere.

It is a mess and it all starts with the original license.

 

Considering the project.

After January 1st 2019 we will not accept any new members.
The project will still be active, but members will not be able to buy their way in.

The date was chosen to make the transition smooth for the majority of existing members.

 

There will be no free demo versions after that time as well.

[Elfo]

17 hours ago, Mobius said:

Well... until speaking with a lawyer and some financial adviser about it, keep the bullshit to yourself.

I have actually, but not with a single lawyer but with multiple ones because I've work in several places that use GPL licensed software and we had to make our changes open source. Simply put, you are misinformed. I can cite references to what I say. Can you?

 

Btw, I won't go deeper on this with you because I remember having a chat with you about it and you were saying some other shit at the time, so there is no point replying to me.

Edited August 4, 2018 by .Elfocrash

[Mobius]

Now, you try to use GPL's legitimacy to justify your work on another companies IP? Cool...

You definitely are misinformed on how licensing can be used, or keep selling what favors you.

I use this post to inform the doings of my project, not put sense to narrow-minded know-alls.

Lets say my family has many members involved with the justice system... So lets leave it there...

Edited August 4, 2018 by Mobius

[Mobius]

Just updated to Java 10.

 

 

109 new features in JDK 10

 https://jaxenter.com/109-new-features-jdk-10-142076.html

[Tryskell]

On 8/3/2018 at 4:06 PM, Mobius said:

Well... until speaking with a lawyer and some financial adviser about it, keep the bullshit to yourself.

Been the owner of L2dotNet, I strongly recommend you advising some, rather than pulling rabbits out of your hat.

I would hilariously see you on a court taking defense against NCsoft, under those pretenses.

 

What Elfocrash seems to forget is all the data required to make the whole thing works is actually leeched and reverse-engineered from one way or another, which is probably forbidden by the whole client stuff and NCSoft property (and they added some retroactive terms since at least GoD).

 

So all in one, the coding section of L2J is probably legal and open source, the datapack side is definitively not. That's right, even Elfo is a outlawer using ripped off intellectual property. Bad, bad Elfo.

 

I would really like to know explanations about how using ripped off data is actually legal, Elfocrash. Because if you think all those formulas and stats/data have been invented and sniffed out, if you think all the HTMs have been handwritten (trivia : actually it was right for some of them), you are either naive or really stubborn in your "I'm always right" attitude.

 

That's fantastic your core side is fully open source, but if actually you follow the "real" law and not the one you invent, then you should provide it without any data - or the one you decide to invent yourself, based at best on your feedbacks (using third part tools on client is forbidden so no PHX allowed to sniff packets).

 

Good luck sharing your fully open source core without data (or at least with your own custom data), Elfocrash. It won't be Lineage 2 emulator basically - but it will match the law you seem to like.

 

Should I add it's normally forbidden to connect a Lineage 2 client to a private server ?

 

Since Elfo likes the laws but probably missed this one :

https://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/lineage-2/lineage-2-user-agreement.php

 

Quote

You also acknowledge that You must obtain Service from NCSOFT to use the Game and You acknowledge that You are responsible for supplying any necessary communications connections (such as Internet access) and hardware to use the Game, as well as any costs or expenses related to the foregoing.

 

"Must obtain service form ncsoft" means "can't obtain service from someone else". You included, Elfo. Your L2J server is actually outlaw. The use of your C# project for a real live server means you are outlaw when you will use it. So yeah you are actually coding something you are normally forbidden to use. Welcome aboard, yarr yarr.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Tryskell