Discussion L2J Projects: No source is a dead-end

[Trance]

Hey everyone,
 

I want to talk about an important issue concerning L2J projects. It's time for us to stop supporting projects that are sold compiled without source code, and also to discourage others from buying or participating in them. Let me explain why.

Currently, there are no L2J projects out there that are stable or of high enough quality to justify being sold without providing the source code. If you want to sell a project like that, you should first make sure it meets the highest standards. The sad truth is that most active L2J projects today don't have enough developers or a truly active development team to keep up with the demands of their users.

You either need to provide a near-perfect project with everything implemented, working as expected, and free of bugs, or you need a larger, active development team to achieve that.

Using an L2J project without access to the source code is a dead-end. Since there are no projects that meet the criteria I mentioned above, you're better off steering clear of them.

In conclusion, do not buy an L2J project without a source.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Trance

[Tryskell]

Lucera is the only project (I'm aware of) matching that criteria, and if that behavior exists it means people actually pays for such.

You basically request customers to stop being stupid, and well, it's actually the hard part of your request.

It should be common sense in 2023 than a Java project should come with sources, if you don't you are basically scammed and participate to that scam effort aswell.

[kage]

Lucera and Mobius seems to be the most active and worth buying it.
For ordinary Admins that doesnt have much knowledge is better, since they dont know what to do with the source anyway.

['Baggos']

1 hour ago, scantraxx7777 said:

Lucera and Mobius seems to be the most active and worth buying it.
For ordinary Admins that doesnt have much knowledge is better, since they dont know what to do with the source anyway.

It is wrong to say "let's promote the project without sources to those who don't have knowledge." As a seller, you are taking advantage of someone who trusts your project, and first and foremost, it is wrong as a person to lead others to failure.
Why failure?

• Without sources, they will never learn what it offers to players.
• Without sources, they will never become familiar with what they are working on.
• Without sources, they will waste more time in support rooms than actually managing the server itself.

However, in 2023, it is wrong for Maxcheaters to accept projects without sources since there is no way to help, no matter how much we want to help.

 

If you truly "love" what you do, you will learn to work on it and even the basic and difficult things you will encounter by editing java sources.
I started in 2009 with a simple notepad, without photos, without video, to open an L2 server on my PC for fun.
Not knowing English, not knowing anything about java or any other programming language, as the years passed I learned the basics and even more on my own.

What is the point of what I am writing? It is that, if you really want to learn something, you will do it no matter how difficult it is.
By purchasing a project that does not give you the option to work on it yourself, then you start from scratch and end up with nothing.

Edited April 5, 2023 by 'Baggos'

[Seamless]

Anyone is free to sell whatever they like. its an open market. I agree with some stuff but dont forget that many l2j developers dont share the knowledge for people to grow. You ll say go learn java or search some old 2008 guide how to implement stuff.  The last 5 years all i see is shared stuff without any context or help from the authors. Simply take this complex feature,  its a code for doing that. Good luck.

Even if you know java you ll need to invest a great amount of time  to undestand all that code written over the years which many of you here doing it since 2008 ? 

-l2jserver forums --- dead 

-maxcheaters --- milking market playgound 

-RU forums -- no idea 

-Acis , Mobius -- buy premium we are not talking to peasants. 

A good idea is not only to train the customers what to buy but also motivate them to learn. maybe some documentation with the classes ? Who will do that right ? 

 

EDIT: I also saw nevemore like the author post. dont you have l2jsunrise with locked jars for most part of your project?  I remember hiring a developer to fix some stuff for an autofarm i ordered back in 2018 because players were standing in walls after a while  and all geodata code was locked. Solution----> drop the source

Edited April 5, 2023 by Seamless

[Trance]

No L2J project meets the standards to be sold without its source code. It's unfair to make clients solely dependent on you when you can’t provide what you have promised.

[melron]

But, "I wanna create a server just 4 fun, with my friends".

 

The main problem here is not the preconfigured pack, but rather the ability for anyone to publish such a server. This is one of the main reasons why the game is dying.

In my opinion, it's not a problem at all to lend a hand when a newbie can't find where to change the mana potions in the XML files. However, I do have a problem when they need modifications on the Java side and don't know what an IDE is, all while the server is in a live state with 10 people online. This is embarrassing, sad, and mainly a problem.

 

It is really sad that anyone out there can publish a server within 20 minutes without having sources, using the phrase "the best server," and then (while these few ppl left) close it after 6 hours by saying "I will open another one in 2 months with crazy new features," when all they doing is changing 5 HTML and one buffer.

 

Unfortunately, there isn't a rule about this (although I wish there were). So, you can't just avoid this issue (I'm sorry).

 

 

P.S. A gift for you:

https://prnt.sc/ExntaP6dKy9f

Edited April 5, 2023 by melron

[Trance]

31 minutes ago, melron said:

But, "I wanna create a server just 4 fun, with my friends".

 

The main problem here is not the preconfigured pack, but rather the ability for anyone to publish such a server. This is one of the main reasons why the game is dying.

In my opinion, it's not a problem at all to lend a hand when a newbie can't find where to change the mana potions in the XML files. However, I do have a problem when they need modifications on the Java side and don't know what an IDE is, all while the server is in a live state with 10 people online. This is embarrassing, sad, and mainly a problem.

 

It is really sad that anyone out there can publish a server within 20 minutes without having sources, using the phrase "the best server," and then (while these few ppl left) close it after 6 hours by saying "I will open another one in 2 months with crazy new features," when all they doing is changing 5 HTML and one buffer.

 

Unfortunately, there isn't a rule about this (although I wish there were). So, you can't just avoid this issue (I'm sorry).

 

 

P.S. A gift for you:

https://prnt.sc/ExntaP6dKy9f

 

You've deviated slightly from the main point, but yes, you're correct. What you're mentioning has always been true; "just for fun" servers have been around since L2J started. It's just that people didn't notice them much before.

[melron]

6 minutes ago, Trance said:

 

You've deviated slightly from the main point, but yes, you're correct. What you're mentioning has always been true; "just for fun" servers have been around since L2J started. It's just that people didn't notice them much before.

 

I know, sometimes certain thoughts weigh on you and you just want to express them. Yes, I know that this has been happening for a long time, but it wasn't so noticeable for several reasons. However, the issue is that even if we say we don't provide support. (Just nobody). Τhings will only get worse due to the inadequate knowledge out there. 

[Tryskell]

On 4/5/2023 at 5:20 PM, Seamless said:

-Acis , Mobius -- buy premium we are not talking to peasants. 

 

Around 3k of my posts are done in MxC dev help section, fixing code and helping newbies. I'm probably in the top 3 biggest contributors in those sections, since ~2011 (without counting my pack and my work in general which you can find in other packs, btw). I continue to read dev help section on a weekly base, unfortunately there isn't any interesting posts to reply or they are locked down too fast - even if I had interesting things to write about it, it happened twice already).

 

I can choose which ppl I want to help and not. My time is as precious as yours.

 

One dude actually spammed me on my Discord asking why adding his custom doesn't work - he simply picked the diff file, named it .java and added it to sources with all "+" symbols. If you don't waste a minimum of time to understand the basics by yourself, it's not to me to teach you how to do so - and I will waste my time doing it, anyway.

 

aCis discord is helpful, even if - and they maybe clone me "a little" on that part - they got cheeky if your question is stupid. About the "diff patch Java applyer dude", few people finally helped him and eventually one dude helped him helpdesking.

 

I don't have that time and the will to do that type of help, on a worldwide level. I obviously prefer to spend my time watching shorts on Youtube, playing video games and working on my pack rather than replying to someone which is incapable of doing some CTRL+F work by himself.

 

I'm accessible on my Discord channel or via PMs if your question isn't totally stupid and/or already answered (notably concerning infos about aCis, which are STICKIED IN GODAMN TOPICS).

 

About premium<>peasant stuff, I'm sorry to say than I don't give special treatment. The "diff patch Java dude" is actually a premium, and I politely replied to him, yesterday, at 21h39 :

 

Quote

 

Tryskell — Hier à 21:39

ask questions on the discord, I can't teach every ppl how L2J works

[21:40]

I can tell you how to optimize your stuff, fix bugs if retail and tell you which method/class eventually replaced another

[21:41]

but I can't pick time to teach everyone how L2J is working, it's basic stuff you need to learn

 

 

Last, but not least, aCis is one of the most documented sources (and it takes actually a lot of time to properly document each method), and I try to make it friendly adding useful methods/classes.

 

I personally always emphasized the fisherman/hungry man quote - aCis never used precompiled, never had customs (even better : I deleted most of them), never got that "all in one" policy simply because it attracts stupid people with no ideas, and by extension you, as a player, got shitty cloned servers ran by idiotics fools which should stay players.

 

I'm proud (and extremely humble) to say than my community is, by far, the cleverest community (except few lost souls coming and returning back to the shadows) amongst L2J communities.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Tryskell

[Seamless]

5 hours ago, Tryskell said:

 

Around 3k of my posts are done in MxC dev help section, fixing code and helping newbies. I'm probably in the top 3 biggest contributors in those sections, since ~2011 (without counting my pack and my work in general which you can find in other packs, btw). I continue to read dev help section on a weekly base, unfortunately there isn't any interesting posts to reply or they are locked down too fast - even if I had interesting things to write about it, it happened twice already).

 

 

 

Wow, I did not expect such an answer. But please don't be triggered as I was not referring to you personally but to the community built around l2j in general. From time to time, I follow your Discord and find many members to be a little bit cheesy. In other Discord communities, this is not the case, and I am not just referring to l2j. I am talking about other framework or coding communities where even the simplest questions are answered humbly, as if the person answering were talking to a four-year-old. I know that many people like it fast without any effort , but even a single keyword can help someone to find what they are looking for. 

[Tryskell]

Well, my answers are generally big (I'm known for that), and in verbal jousting, it's far easier to attack rather than to defend. Unaware ppl would read your answer and will simply conclude I'm not reachable, or even worst I answer if you pay - which is completely wrong. It's extremely easy to down a reputation, far harder to defend it.

 

L2J community was always "cheesy", it's not new.

 

L2J ecosystem got many ressources, being videos or guidelines, regarding basic stuff. The community is probably also far younger than other type of projects. Also it's extremely easy to launch a server. There is too many "developers" and not enough players those days.

 

It's not a chance than anyone can make his own server. Other emulators community are way more friendly because there is far, far, far lesser competition. And there is far, far, far lesser competition in other emulators because they're probably harder to install/edit/got lower community.

 

Too many fish in the same water puddle, if you know what I mean.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Tryskell

[An4rchy]

There's a few things to mention here.

 

First of all, people and mainly l2 players who want to create their own private server need to realize that programming is not something very easy to learn and it is a broad topic. Also, a server is not only about programming. There's numerous things you need to learn and understand in order to be in the position to create and maintain a private server. Networking, website, database, backups, understanding of what a proper server should look like. And that's just the backend part. You also need great knowledge of the market in l2, what is relevant at the current period you're trying to open and what not, what most players prefer to play and what is annoying etc.

 

I know the first paragraph is a bit off the main topic, but it's a response to @Seamless reply about l2j developers not sharing the information to the public. It doesn't really work like that and, like Tryskell said, most people who are in the business don't care about learning. They only care about finding the easiest way to make money out of l2 and are not eager to learn. Myself for example, I started messing around with l2j when I was 13 years old. I realized I love programming the possibility to make something work as you want for others to enjoy, so instead of focusing on opening a quick cash-grab server at the time, I starting studying java and programming in general. If 5/10 people followed the same path, these forums and the game in general would still be alive and thriving, at least in my opinion.

 

-

 

About selling a project without access to sources, I agree with Trance. L2J projects (any project out there really) are far from complete and from what a professional server emulator would look like. That being said, you cannot claim that you are in the position to sell a 'finished' product without allowing the customers to edit what they like, simply because you don't have such a product.

 

If you wish to sell a project with sources being private, you need to make sure that it is in the correct state to do so. For example, there should not be any hard-coded logic, there should be support for custom scripts, all retail logic should be fully editable/manageable/configurable in the datapack and generally the whole backend should be used as a tool/jar in order to build your datapack and logic upon. Currently there is no project to offer such sources, even the ones who sell compiled packs like Lucera are not in the state to do so.

 

Moreover, if you go with this approach, you should have a team (yes, one person is not enough it will never be) to be ready to support the customers with any issues that might occur on-the-fly and not have Deazer (the dev of lucera) speak to you in irony or even call you a liar about bugs you report to him.

 

-

 

Generally though, as I said I agree with Trance, an MMORPG's server cannot really be sold as a tool/jar for the simple fact that it's build for a specific client/game. Logic should be modular to be more manageable and that by itself limits the possibility to generalize everything and make everything accessible from the datapack without any consequences (that being readability, scalability etc). In my opinion they should calculate an appropriate price for the sources and only sell the whole package, not compiled crap.

 

Finally, having said all that, L2 is still L2 and I believe it's too late to change the community into something better or more accepting, this game's road is already determined and I'm afraid there's not much admins/devs can do to deviate from that.

Edited April 7, 2023 by An4rchy

[Dragic]

Just let the people do whatever they want..

 

There is good projects out there without source which their authors update them and of course some people have the knowledge to work in compiled projects making an extensions or even modify the compiled jars.

[Tryskell]

Tbh I don't really understand where you, guys, are pathing by.

Don't promote Lucera (and others packs, but I see only Lucera matching the topic) on MxC to begin with (self board dropped, share links dropped,...), if your point is to forbid that type of product.

If people are unable to edit sources because some RU dude is selling, without hiding the fact it's precompiled/obfuscated, that's not your business. People can and do choices by their own.

Instead, try to promote/endorse packs which go the correct way.

What you do is just brassing wind (no offense).

If people are ready to pay 100/200€ for an obfuscated / precompiled and unfinished pack, well, it feels dirty but Darwin exists for a reason. Edited April 8, 2023 by Tryskell