WTS L2Tales - Source code of H5 final version - 400 euro

[xdem]

6 hours ago, vampir said:

I think when I joined the team couple of years ago and L2 was very popular, tales had about 3,5-4k on weekends. I had to do some Network IO optimizations, because MMOExecutableQueue had a bottleneck. 

 

LOL

[AchYlek]

On 8/15/2022 at 11:16 AM, An4rchy said:

 

No private server has over 5k players, unless it's 2007 and even then, servers would lag like hell with such amounts of players. Tales was notorious for p2w, paid clans, fake online and stuff like that, so .online showing 15k is normal for servers like that, it doesn't mean it's anywhere near the truth tho. Hell, even on Eola we showed 1400 online when there was ~500 real + shops/fakes/fake .online.

no paid clans , at gathering tales had 2,9k ppl in giran with boxes , adrenaline confirmed 

  

On 8/16/2022 at 11:22 AM, xdem said:

 

lmao u think knowlist is the problem? knowlist is just a safety pillow for the client, the real and only issue is the client the server doesn't care it scales vertically

 

The client won't render more than a few hundreds of server object per region, not to mention what its able to render per fov, its well bellow 300, no matter the machine, runs similarly on a low end 2007 pc and a 2022 high end pc, so by definition a server wont break the 2k-3k barrier ever, (the point where players get frustrated with severe client performance and quit is probably lower than that).

 

now, the 5k+ online is a joke (not to mention the 15k+), its ape grade marketing for ultimate trashcan fanbois like achylek, who can not appreciate reality and rely on fake large numbers to play the server.

 

5k+ can be done only with world sharding (instances/channels/etc) there's no such implementation on and L2 server ever including the official ones, (WoW does something similar)

 

A decent high online number is something around 600 capped to 1400, you can claim that this is 3k+ the apes will believe this instantly (they like to feel that they are part of something important)

i know even official serbers have capped 6-8k online since l2 wont handle more ppl, 

 

since me was adrenaline user me know how every server had online, sorry me drunked my inglish bad 

Edited August 17, 2022 by AchYlek

[xdem]

2 hours ago, AchYlek said:

no paid clans , at gathering tales had 2,9k ppl in giran with boxes , adrenaline confirmed 

  

i know even official serbers have capped 6-8k online since l2 wont handle more ppl, 

 

since me was adrenaline user me know how every server had online, sorry me drunked my inglish bad 

 

bullshit, adrenaline gets the server's online info from login server packets that can be easily faked by the server, a fool being fooled is not something new you are welcome ! You have not a single idea how the server works, its impossible for adrenaline to know a realistic online count without porting to every single region of the server in an instant its impossible to do it

Edited August 17, 2022 by xdem

[vampir]

1 hour ago, xdem said:

 

bullshit, adrenaline gets the server's online info from login server packets that can be easily faked by the server, a fool being fooled is not something new you are welcome ! You have not a single idea how the server works, its impossible for adrenaline to know a realistic online count without porting to every single region of the server in an instant its impossible to do it

That's not true. Official servers used real online count in those packets, so it was a reliable source of online count information.

 

Adrenaline is also perfectly capable of finding out how many characters are present in Giran or any other region, so it was easy to find out how many people attend gatherings. Fake online characters would be counted in such case too, but we never used them on tales.

[xdem]

1 hour ago, vampir said:

That's not true. Official servers used real online count in those packets, so it was a reliable source of online count information.

 

Adrenaline is also perfectly capable of finding out how many characters are present in Giran or any other region, so it was easy to find out how many people attend gatherings. Fake online characters would be counted in such case too, but we never used them on tales.

 

How is it perfectly capable ? This is unreliable the server can fake it very easily, and for the sake of the conversation we are talking about whole server online counts which is transmitted from the LoginServer, it can be faked with ease.

 

Adrenaline can't find the online count reliably, a decent developer is one step ahead of it in this matter.

[AchYlek]

3 hours ago, xdem said:

 

How is it perfectly capable ? This is unreliable the server can fake it very easily, and for the sake of the conversation we are talking about whole server online counts which is transmitted from the LoginServer, it can be faked with ease.

 

Adrenaline can't find the online count reliably, a decent developer is one step ahead of it in this matter.

damn rly u said this? even dead l2net can count real online , adrenaline count online at  loc, but though it u can find real online 

 

me found only this photka https://i.imgur.com/r9AqdaX.jpeg and its 2k15 photka i think when devs had no idea about phantoms

Edited August 17, 2022 by AchYlek

[xdem]

5 hours ago, AchYlek said:

damn rly u said this? even dead l2net can count real online , adrenaline count online at  loc, but though it u can find real online 

 

me found only this photka https://i.imgur.com/r9AqdaX.jpeg and its 2k15 photka i think when devs had no idea about phantoms

 

told you the total online is offered by the server and can be totally faked by the developer at any time, adrenaline can't ever know the real online as there's no magic way to know, but to trust that whatever the server claims is true

[AlmostGood]

what is on screen shows number of players bot sees in range, adr never used auth server for anything.

 

Back to maybe 2 years ago, off servers still allowed unauthed access to direct server stats (c_version with proto -3), and when covid hit chronos/naia/classic was at its online cap of 5.5k-6k most of the day. L2j ppl might be unaware, but off servers had login queue added many years ago, because servers were often full (back when game was still doing good).

[An4rchy]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:22 PM, xdem said:

 

lmao u think knowlist is the problem? knowlist is just a safety pillow for the client, the real and only issue is the client the server doesn't care it scales vertically

 

 

Well it's true if you have 5k players in your known objects it's gonna be an issue for the client, but there's many ways to limit the players that are rendered.

 

They should have just updated to newer unreal technologies with goddess of destruction chronicle coming out, but I can understand why they didn't; their population was 1/10 by that time so it was unnecessary.

 

-

 

Server-side, there could be some issues with huge online if there's heavy operations done while iterating online players, but you're most likely right it's not like it runs on i5 4gb ram nowadays.

 

-

 

Adrenaline detects online count most likely by the packets sent by the server, it's 10 second job to fake these numbers. I can make server look Heavy with 5 online players and send 3450 players count. Unless they've got a more sophisticated way of doing this which I doubt is possible.

Edited August 25, 2022 by An4rchy

[xdem]

2 hours ago, An4rchy said:

 

Well it's true if you have 5k players in your known objects it's gonna be an issue for the client, but there's many ways to limit the players that are rendered.

 

They should have just updated to newer unreal technologies with goddess of destruction chronicle coming out, but I can understand why they didn't; their population was 1/10 by that time so it was unnecessary.

 

-

 

Server-side, there could be some issues with huge online if there's heavy operations done while iterating online players, but you're most likely right it's not like it runs on i5 4gb ram nowadays.

 

-

 

Adrenaline detects online count most likely by the packets sent by the server, it's 10 second job to fake these numbers. I can make server look Heavy with 5 online players and send 3450 players count. Unless they've got a more sophisticated way of doing this which I doubt is possible.

 

the bottleneck doesn't really have to do with rendering or some internal that can be improved, its a CPU bottleneck on the network level of the engine, as you increase the server objects linearly the work of the CPU on the network level raises exponentially and the current architecture of L2 networking can't handle that 

Edited August 25, 2022 by xdem

[An4rchy]

31 minutes ago, xdem said:

 

the bottleneck doesn't really have to do with rendering or some internal that can be improved, its a CPU bottleneck on the network level of the engine, as you increase the server objects linearly the work of the CPU on the network level raises exponentially and the current architecture of L2 networking can't handle that 

 

You could be right, but I doubt client networking bottlenecks the CPU (unless the server floods the client with identical packets, where there should be appropriate checks by the client to avoid doing the same thing over and over). It sounds a bit dumb too if they didn't optimize CPU operations in the engine to handle huge amounts of players.

 

Generally I don't think logic/networking takes more time than the shaders processing and calculating as well as the rendering, but I could be wrong. I haven't really gone into detail of how UE2 rendering pipeline works or how L2 handles logic/networking.

Edited August 26, 2022 by An4rchy

[xdem]

2 hours ago, An4rchy said:

 

You could be right, but I doubt client networking bottlenecks the CPU (unless the server floods the client with identical packets, where there should be appropriate checks by the client to avoid doing the same thing over and over). It sounds a bit dumb too if they didn't optimize CPU operations in the engine to handle huge amounts of players.

 

Generally I don't think logic/networking takes more time than the shaders processing and calculating as well as the rendering, but I could be wrong. I haven't really gone into detail of how UE2 rendering pipeline works or how L2 handles logic/networking.

 

I didn't said it bottlenecks your CPU, it's just not able to utilize it correctly due to its architectural design, you can try to lower your graphics settings etc, you won't notice a difference so my guess is that the lag is internal and networking is my first suspect 

[An4rchy]

14 minutes ago, xdem said:

 

I didn't said it bottlenecks your CPU, it's just not able to utilize it correctly due to its architectural design, you can try to lower your graphics settings etc, you won't notice a difference so my guess is that the lag is internal and networking is my first suspect 

 

Lowering your graphics can only make a difference if you lower the field of view distance (it's an option in Classic client) so that it doesn't render objects that are far away. Even though this improves fps issues, it's not fun to play like this, specially if you're hunting specific monsters or looking for a certain player because they're simply not visible unless you get close to them.

 

However this makes me wonder if they even include concepts such as batch rendering, texture resolution optimizations or proper LOD management. It's most likely all optimized and included since unreal engine has been the leading 3d game engine for years (even back then) but it's still shocking that ncsoft never changed/optimized their networking/logic architecture even after all these years, specially since it causes such fps issues.

Edited August 26, 2022 by An4rchy

[vampir]

On 8/25/2022 at 2:31 PM, xdem said:

 

the bottleneck doesn't really have to do with rendering or some internal that can be improved, its a CPU bottleneck on the network level of the engine, as you increase the server objects linearly the work of the CPU on the network level raises exponentially and the current architecture of L2 networking can't handle that 

That's not true. Long time ago I made a test, in which I spawned few thousand NPCs, that didn't have random animation, movement or any other trigger for sending packet except for initial NpcInfo. Client was very, very slow in rendering them, but even after few minutes you can notice that it will settle with limited amount of NPCs that are rendered. When you move around in such environment, NPCs far away will be deleted, while those closer to you will be rendered. This happens without any NpcInfo packets being sent, so client stores them in memory even though they are not shown.

 

I can't say what exactly is the problem, but for sure it's not easy to fix.

[An4rchy]

1 hour ago, vampir said:

That's not true. Long time ago I made a test, in which I spawned few thousand NPCs, that didn't have random animation, movement or any other trigger for sending packet except for initial NpcInfo. Client was very, very slow in rendering them, but even after few minutes you can notice that it will settle with limited amount of NPCs that are rendered. When you move around in such environment, NPCs far away will be deleted, while those closer to you will be rendered. This happens without any NpcInfo packets being sent, so client stores them in memory even though they are not shown.

 

I can't say what exactly is the problem, but for sure it's not easy to fix.

 

This can still be caused by the internal architecture of the engine as xdem said, but I still think it's got more to do with the rendering process. I mean it was made during 2002-2004 most likely when mmorpgs were few due to this reason (and many more ofcourse), chances are they never updated their code since people got used to it and population kept decreasing after C5-Interlude.

 

I don't think it's fixable unless you remake the game in a newer engine cause you basically need to rework the whole engine with newer faster technologies like ECS system or rendering stuff like I mentioned in a previous reply.