Breaking aCis ToA

[xdem]

1 minute ago, Kara said:

 

Alright you're right it was developed by multiple people @Zoey76 for me represent all these people who provided this "stable" pack for us to leech and make our "projects". 

 

Only those who spend days doing all these packet sniffing (especially in H5 that is a mess), should be credit on each file we make. 

 

You get what i mean. @Tryskellmostly did a clean up and partial rework not big engine re-work (at least so far), but still he should lock it and make it private. 

 

make private WHAT a downgraded L2J H5 ? if aCis wasn't freely accessible by the average user it would cease to exist long ago since there would not be reports / contributions but just Tryskell's work who would pretty sure give up if he was closed source and isolated

[Tryskell]

10 minutes ago, Kara said:

 

I said that You work on @Zoey76 source and it's a mess already cause its a combination of your work and their work. Since you feel like you did a heavy re-work why don't you lock aCis and make it via payment? Even amateur projects are locked nowadays such as L2JHellas. 

You should also protect your work since they don't respect you. 

 

 

Yes i know. For me the best "developer" i've ever seen it's by far @Zoey76 and even if we work 10 years we won't balance the work he did for us. All projects right now (in my opinion) exists because of him yet nobody credit their work. We are greed.

 

Actually, I think L2J is at this bad shape only because of Zoey76. And Zoey76 isn't the one who coded initial L2J, just for your concern. He got nothing to do with L2J IL (if he was simply here at this time).

 

There was a nice video made on L2JForum, back in time, with all contributors names - and I assure you than Zoey76 isn't the biggest one, in the concerned period of L2JIL, which is mine.

 

----

 

Locking a source don't avoid the leak, and it's not my point to lock things.

 

And as says xdem, even if I could simply make few servers and fix things by myself and wait reports from players, it's "easier" and more "friendly" to build a community around a project.

 

If you honor my words, you honor my work - that's all. If you don't feel like honoring my words, you got other, amateur or pro, L2J forks - simply use them.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Tryskell

[xdem]

And lets not forget - aCis ultimately killed L2JFrozen because it was FREELY available and cleaner, if aCis wasn't free or a concept at all, we would probably use L2JFrozen today and be happy about it !

[Tryskell]

9 minutes ago, xdem said:

 

Why should I be lying? I've always said your work is well respected but even with your huge contribution you are still a drip drop in the sea comparing to what all of us including players contributed to L2J - which you inherrited to create aCis ! This is a fact that you can't deny

 

 

 

I'm not sure how you calculate things, anyway, I can tell you than it's not a matter about how much was previously done - if everything done is wrong, then, everything has to be redone from zero.

 

I can give you few exemples, such as skill effect system. It's as old as L2J, and it's the wrongest thing ever, leading to numerous issues. It's not even yet fixed on latest. Spawnlist is another wrong system (should be territory based). Knownlist is another (was scaling so bad than it could easily consume 2g RAM of your server with 3500 NPCs seeing each other). I can name few dozen and dozen of wrong things, than I reworked or am actually in the process to rework with my community.

 

Most data (scripts, only to name those) has been or will be reparsed - that's a fact. It's not because it was existing before, or I reuse the existing structure, it makes my work "invisible".

 

My work is a part of a bigger work. I'm not sure if you know exactly how bad L2J IL is, but It's an old decayed house than I refactor since 10y.

 

And saying my (and my community) work equals 5% is, as I said, either ignorance or a lie.

[Kara]

Alright taking in consideration what you just said, i can say it's true.

I also agree that aCis is a thing nowadays because of the approaching aCis had or "Monkey Lab" as @Tryskellclaim to call it. 

[Tryskell]

7 minutes ago, xdem said:

And lets not forget - aCis ultimately killed L2JFrozen because it was FREELY available and cleaner, if aCis wasn't free or a concept at all, we would probably use L2JFrozen today and be happy about it !

 

Believe me, I doubt L2JFrozen would survive a lot - Shyla/Nefer were doing hotfixes. You don't make a pack out of hotfixes. They had no special vision about what needed to be done.

 

Remember than L2JFrozen isn't based on L2JIL, but on Scoria. Which means people already worked before them, and before them, it was probably some other russian dudes... Until L2J IL.

 

L2JFrozen is only "good" because of the Scoria part... If they would begin on the same level than me, believe me, that would be another story.

 

And if I can tell you that, it's because I was checking their timeline, during their whole lifetime, without ninja-ing anything useful.

 

As I did with L2JHellas - nothing special to import.

[xdem]

2 minutes ago, Tryskell said:

And saying my (and my community) work equals 5% is, as I said, either ignorance or a lie.

 

It doesn't matter if you reworked or coded something from scratch, I do appreciate and understand the need of it - Yet you have to realise that taking a car and tuning it or changing the tires doesn't make you a car manufracturer - You used a solid base, L2J that is and it does not come only with a java source but with a battle proven Database architecture and a retail like Datapack. Packet reverse engineering is also a big thing, I've already mentioned before these guys did the heavy lifting for us but you probably didn't notice or ignored. This is what matters most - not scrapping out working things and re-doing them. So I still personally believe that it tops 5-10%

[Tryskell]

26 minutes ago, xdem said:

 

You used a solid base, L2J that is and it does not come only with a java source but with a battle proven Database architecture and a retail like Datapack

 

Lol, you would figure out what I have to reparse, you would reformulate immediately... Spawnlist, zones, skills, items, npc templates have to be reparsed and got their own issue tab on my gitlab... Without counting what I already did since few years.

 

You got it all wrong, but that's np, you're a "car driver". From the moment wheels and engine are working, everything is good.

 

All in one, it changes nothing to the concept - my point isn't to insult (or "forget") old retired L2J developers, who did what they could. At that time, there was no special leader, there was no special code rules and conventions (that's the real, only thing than Zoey76 did - for the team management, imho, he just destroyed L2J, forcing the split of L2JUnity, not accepting forks help for YEARS, etc).

 

My point is to make my pack the most practical for ME and my COMMUNITY to MAINTAIN. I got few, basic, rules you are free to respect or not - which I believe improve aCis and will allow to maintain its legacy - and until now, it worked.

 

My point is to deliver a IL pack for everyone. If you still didn't get it, I can't help you.

 

I would want to make it private, I would simply make my own server, back in 2010, and only rely on players reports. I wouldn't care about javadoc, about methods rename, about splitting classes.

 

But I know aCis is far more than "that" - some people litteraly LEARNT coding, reading my code. Some people PMed me, saying than my project gave them the desire to go in developer classroom - or simply thanked me for the "player memories".

 

And if aCis is still used, it's only because it's coded in a serious way. There is a vision and there is a team leader, with defined goals. Which most of projects simply don't have.

 

PS : packets aren't a big deal, once you got opcodes, and structure. And that's decompilable.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Tryskell

[xdem]

8 minutes ago, Tryskell said:

 

Lol, you would figure out what I have to reparse, you would reformulate immediately... Spawnlist, zones, skills, items, npc templates have to be reparsed and got their own issue tab on my gitlab... Without counting what I already did since few years.

 

You got it all wrong, but that's np, you're a "car driver". From the moment wheels and engine are working, everything is good.

 

All in one, it changes nothing to the concept - my point isn't to insult (or "forget") old retired L2J developers, who did what they could. At that time, there was no special leader, there was no special code rules and conventions (that's the real, only thing than Zoey76 did - for the team management, imho, he just destroyed L2J, forcing the split of L2JUnity, not accepting forks help for YEARS, etc).

 

My point is to make my pack the most practical for ME and my COMMUNITY to MAINTAIN. I got few, basic, rules you are free to respect or not - which I believe improve aCis and will allow to maintain its legacy - and until now, it worked.

 

My point is to deliver a IL pack for everyone. If you still didn't get it, I can't help you.

 

I would want to make it private, I would simply make my own server, back in 2010, and only rely on players reports. I wouldn't care about javadoc, about methods rename, about splitting classes.

 

But I know aCis is far more than "that" - some people litteraly LEARNT coding, reading my code. Some people PMed me, saying than my project gave them the desire to go in developer classroom - or simply thanked me for the "player memories".

 

And if aCis is still used, it's only because it's coded in a serious way. There is a vision and there is a team leader, with defined goals. Which most of projects simply don't have.

 

I can't deny all these, im an aCis fanboi since 10 years, you know that. I even upgraded it to H5 because I couldn't let go when I wanted to move on to a different chronicle. Its fine work such an old pack - so I can understand the level of quality aCis delivers now.

 

I just really believe that acis-based custom projects that are for sell should be allowed given that the work they've put on to customize it justifies the money asked - even if its aCis based or not.

Edited January 25, 2021 by xdem

[BruT]

actually thats the reason all l2jservers exist, and no one can deny it.

ALL HAIL l2chef

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by BruT

[Tryskell]

6 minutes ago, xdem said:

 

I can't deny all these, im an aCis fanboi since 10 years, you know that. I even upgraded it to H5 because I couldn't let go when I wanted to move on to a different chronicle. Its fine work such an old pack - so I can understand the level of quality aCis delivers now.

 

I just really believe that acis-based custom projects that are for sell should be allowed given that the work they've put on to customize it justifies the money asked - even if its aCis based or not.

 

Since sellers will never maintain the pack, I think that they shouldn't. Their sell is bound to aCis name, meaning if there is a backdoor, a shitty custom or an issue, they will come to me, not to the seller.

10 minutes ago, BruT said:

actually thats the reason all l2jservers exist, and no one can deny it.

 

 

That's the video I was referencing on my post :). Like if Zoey76 did all... :D

[BruT]

i've been in the l2jserver forums for a very long time and i never saw a single commit by Zoey76 until h5 when l2jserver was already dead.

 

kara I dont mean to offend you, but you are too young to argue about l2j which is 17 year old project

 

L2jserver was created in middle of 2004 and  Zoey76 Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:36 am in the second forum of l2jserver

Edited January 26, 2021 by BruT

[iTopZ]

that video reminded me the old times l2jteon, l2jfree the split between l2j old memories 

[Kara]

Guys don't get me wrong but mention Zoey76 i refer to the whole L2J team. I just appreciate the way he code more than other's so i mention his name often even tho lately he quit and focus on customization which is a shame for L2J. It's like they head to a custom project. 

 

@Tryskell XDEM is paying his respect to your work and pretty much any other person since you're the only active C6 Project, you don't have to raise your shield to him. I also agree that you can't ask other's to provide .diff for a project that is open source when they share or sell it. Pretty much when someone sell aCis project he is not selling the fixes, more like his custom, we all know who the owner of aCis is. 

[Tryskell]

2 minutes ago, BruT said:

i've been in l2jserver forums for a very long time and i never saw a single commit by him until h5 when l2jserver was already dead.

 

12 minutes ago, Kara said:

Guys don't get me wrong but mention Zoey76 i refer to the whole L2J team. I just appreciate the way he code more than other's so i mention his name often even tho lately he quit and focus on customization which is a shame for L2J. It's like they head to a custom project. 

 

@Tryskell XDEM is paying his respect to your work and pretty much any other person since you're the only active C6 Project, you don't have to raise your shield to him. I also agree that you can't ask other's to provide .diff for a project that is open source when they share or sell it. Pretty much when someone sell aCis project he is not selling the fixes, more like his custom, we all know who the owner of aCis is. 

 

Most of customs are already shared, and the pack is free. Meaning they sell "wind", since they won't even "maintain" their offers (aka, provide fixes for either their customs or the initial pack).

 

As I said to Trance, marketplace should stop to offer such spot for 2008 year behavior. Because yes, putting some dirty ninja-ed customs from some dark russian forums, adding your own HTMs (sometimes, not even yours) and putting it on any random base doesn't make it a "pack".

 

My point isn't an ego point, it is a project leader point - a point than you can't understand, since you don't manage a publically used pack and you're part of the "car users" (to take back the "car manufacturer" image of xDem).

 

The pack isn't 'fully' open source for specific reasons (and actually, the number of shares and aCis popularity gave me right about the made choice, back in 2010), the pack isn't able to sell for specific reasons (which I already explained - customers don't have any support from sellers, and will ultimately whine to me, my bug report section will be filled with either invalid or already fixed reports, there is no control over quality, there is no control over security, etc) - and once again, you can use any other fork or even basic L2JIL if you want to SELL your customs.

 

I work almost for free, since 10 years. The minimum is to, at least, respect the few rules I put - which are far to be extreme.