Make bots irrelevant.

[Mr_Zero]

The main reason I’m opening this topic is to see if anyone has any suggestions when it comes to trying to make bot significance on an L2 server redundant, while also being able to maintain a decent level of a sense of progression to keep the player interested in the server.

 

I’ve noticed that some projects are including auto features similar to that of live official servers. Okay, so that’s one way to tackle it, somewhat. But now L2 is a mobile game for everyone.

 

Another server I tried recently allows you to only get items/adena from farming on one box (though I’m sure this can be bypassed by fiddling with IP and stuff). So again, random people who bot might be limited, but people who know what the're doing will reign supreme.

 

Anyhow, I think it’s safe to say that a server will never be able to eliminate bots, regardless of protections and good will.

 

So I was thinking, why not create a server environment that ensures that bots are useless.

 

Example, some PvP servers have made raid bosses the only relevant outlet when it comes to obtaining top level items, in most cases parts of some custom armor. You basically add 10 raids to your server, have a re-spawn time of like 1 hour for each, and the cycle of repetition begins.

 

This is one way of tackling the significance of bots. But alone the product is unsatisfying. However, what if we pooled ideas together and see what we can come up with.

 

Essentially, I’m asking you to include ideas on how to make bots useless on a server via features. We’ll probably have to stick to mid-rates and high-rates, as low rates require grinding for exp, so not much can be done there, I suppose.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by mr zero

[Mr_Zero]

Lets take Interlude client as an example since it’s widespread. Keep it to mid/high rate since bots would remain useful for the sake of grinding on a low rate.

 

So x100? Okay, let’s do x100.

 

What’s next? What’s good about IL? Numerous sides competing for Epic Bosses. The mass PvP is where the game shines. Okay, so we’re keeping that. Standard mid-rate game-play is all about challenging for these epics.

 

So obviously Epic Jewels are only obtainable via killing Epic Bosses under this bot free server. But what will the smaller groups do? Well, how about we create a feature where Epic Bosses and another significant boss spawns exactly at the same time?

 

Lets say it’s Thursday and Baium spawns at 21:00. Well, create an environment where Ember spawns at the exact same time. This creates two tiers of challengers. Those who challenge for the top prize of the night, which is Baium, and those who challenge for the intermediate challenge of the night, Ember.

 

So we’ve created an environment where small sides and big sides have something to do on Thursday night. Keep something similar for most nights. This is irrelevant to bots but it's an example of building a server that's good for a multi-layer of true players. 

 

So what about standard items? You cant eliminate bots if you still use conventional mechanics for items via crafting, spoiling, standard farming.

 

Well, this is where it gets tricky. How do we create an environment and final product that is both engaging, maintains a sense of progress and occupancy for its players? Well, I suppose listing the essentials of what an average player must do to succeed in IL would be a good start, and after that we must find an alternate method of obtaining these items without bots being useful, or at least decisive.

 

Weapons & Armors & Jewels

SA crystals

Life stones

Enchants

Subclass/Nobless

Olympiad (anti-feed)

 

So obviously stakato quest, pagans, torches, molars and I don't know what else simply wont do. Generally, spoiling wont do either. Conventional materials should become insignificant in crafting and world spoiling should be set at x1 rates (so enchants cant be abused either). Steam-line the crafting system, where you only require the rec, the key mats, crystals and gemstones, and have these items be obtained via scenarios like 4s, rift, normal bosses, epic bosses and w/e we can come up with. 

 

I ramble. : D    

[Tryskell]

From the moment :

- there is an economic system and a money to get and trade things from

- you can actually make gold income due to automatization pattern (farming and questing is programmable)

- you gain something from automatization (item, level)

 

you will have bots.

 

No matter disruptive actions, no matter rates (because adena is simply exchanged for Gliterring Medal or Gold Bar).

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Irrelevant botting ? Top level and top gear for everyone.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Tryskell

[Mr_Zero]

Perhaps I should have worded it differently then. Minimizing the significance of bots would be more accurate, and more realistic.

 

Yes no matter what you do you will have bots, okay. But look at conventional L2 quests and mechanics. You can abuse the hell out of everything via bots. People even have the tenacity to name their spoilers out of materials they bot for, lol. “CBP”, “DMP”, MithrilOre”. I actually saw that not too long ago.

 

Quests like Stakato, Pagans, FoG, are abused on every single server I’ve seen.

 

You are right when you say as long as an economic system is in place you will have bots. But a currency’s value comes from its purchasing power, and the goods and services you can actually use it for.

 

If you set adena/drop rates at x1 on an x100 EXP server, and eliminate conventional material and quest hunting, while replacing those with alternative ways to “gear up” and obtain valuable items (life-stones, enchants etc) you do have a chance at minimizing the significance of bots.

 

The key here is the alternative method. Custom currency or w/e doesn’t suffice, whether you name it Gold Bar, or Medals. That’s not the point. The point is to make 2 hours of normal, real game-play inside some dungeon by a small group of players be the equivalent of a week for someone who’d bot in the open world.

 

If real valuables in the game can only be obtained in environments inhospitable for bots, then by default, you minimize their significance. Raid Bosses are inhospitable for bots, since they are contested via PvP  and it's simply not time consuming to kill it. A daily dungeon would also be inhospitable.

 

You can automate a hard dungeon as well, I know, but it’s still better than bots using the conventional route in the game and reaping the benefits it offers in the open world.

 

I firmly believe there is a way to create a server environment where bots aren't as useful as they are in retail game-play, and that is the purpose of this thread, to brainstorm over it. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by mr zero

[BabayG]

No matter what you do bots can not be eliminated and even if you change some features significantly so as to minimize their impact to the game it still won't have major differences. You can only keep away newbie botters, elite botters will still dominate with scripts. Epic boss fights? I ve seen whole clan of bots. Sieges, events, fort, =same. It's not only farming and questing. So basically you allow botting or you hunt botters down by any means whether it's complex patters, captcha, reworking mobs Ai or bot hunters. 

[Mr_Zero]

Yeah, fuckfest is actually a great way to describe it, haha. 

 

This is why I was hoping that suggestions could come in to try to minimize the significance of bots, while somehow maintaining an enjoyable gaming experience that is still somewhat reliant on merit. You cant phase botting out of the game, okay, I accept that, but there have to be features/mechanics that somehow level the playing field (at least on something like a higher end mid-rate that's geared to casual development). 

 

Conventional L2 mechanics are more susceptible to bots due to their complexity.   

Edited September 3, 2019 by mr zero

[LuckySt1305]

You want a simpler solution? Don't open a server if you have no time to monitor the server.. Put actual gm's or yourself to roam the l2 areas and you will be fine.. And not only the most popular ones.

Apart from that no matter what you do on the server side to change the way farm is will be a disaster. And btw you are thinking about it wrong.. Mid and low servers are not ONLY about epics.. That's why most servers hit rock bottom 1 month max after opening.. But that's another story. No having 2 major rb's at the same time or limiting farm is.. idiotic :P Or giving to all max items etc etc etc

[Mr_Zero]

I don't recall stating in this topic that I intend to open a server, I'm just an average player who enjoys the game, that's all. What I don't like, however, is the trajectory the game has taken these past few years, hence the topic. Maybe I'm hitting a nerve or two, though, I don't know. After all, most players have adapted to adrenaline nowadays. It's the standard norm.  

 

Mid/high rates aren't designed for longevity. I'd be perfectly happy as a player to join a mid rate that would last around 2 months if it was enjoyable. I'd consider that a success, actually. That being said, different mechanics could breed different results. They could lead to utter failure, or they could lead to a success story. Who knows? 

 

But anyhow, when you read a server's description you should be aware of what you're signing up for, to an extent. If I want longevity, I'll invest my time in a low rate, but there is reluctance to do so, because primarily bots win, and that's only enhanced as time progresses. Not everyone seeks longevity, however.  

 

Regardless, this is a highly subjective argument. What you consider idiotic might work for me, and vise versa. I just find it a bit tedious that people are unwilling to explore. Look at the majority of servers opening up these days. They're pretty much the same. There are cases where projects stand out, and I'm happy that some are actually opening this month. But overall, I don't see why it would be bad to at least discuss alternative routes, albeit, on a hypothetical note. 

 

Those who aren't interested, well, there are plenty of projects that cater to your preferences, so no worries. This topic isn't for you. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by mr zero

[LuckySt1305]

It was not intended for you. I never said that you "you" need to check. You =admin x, z, y

 

Bots win bcz there are not active gms..

 

As for an idea that makes bots irrelevant.. Imo you seek outopia or another game. You can do is make their life difficult or have enough active ppl to kill them..

 

As for a stand alone idea the only good thing so far was 2 epics at the same time and that is debatable. The thing is there are bots for 2 things. Farm and pvp which is the entire game.. Perhaps smarter AI on antibots such as questions with more difficult answers but that is bad as well for 83726161 reasons.

 

If you only count bots for farm then only top items on start is viable but it never works bcz it's not CoD..

 

Philosophically speaking as you say you don't want to open a server it's a bad topic to begin with. You wanna change the game for an out of fame reason. Nah

[Tryskell]

Limiting one client per HWID and enforcing a single client launch on your system already cut all the lowbies botters. For the hardcore using VM or multiple network cards, you probably want an active GM.

 

You can also write some stats, like storing xp/player table on a Map, which would be cleaned every day. The same could be done on a hourly base. It's enough to see if someone botted /nolifed, and then you can investigate physically another day to see what currently happen.

 

You can do the same logging system with quest success/player. If someone makes a repeatable quest more than 2 times per day, it triggers you an alert and then you can investigate yourself.

 

The point is to mitigate the problem. I doubt than you can do better than that.

 

Another, simple way is to make repeatable quest doable only once per day. It drastically limit quest botting.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Tryskell

[LuckySt1305]

"Limiting one client per HWID and enforcing a single client launch on your system already cut all the lowbies botters."

 

Keyword: lowbies

Apart from that especially if it's a low or even mid server it's a bad idea. You can't even make 1 char as a shop this way. Let alone boxed EE or spoiler. But let's say you don't care for boxes" l2 is a team blah blah". What about crafter? Or free seller (low lvl chars have free tp etc).

 

Those are still ways to limit the bot presence and not make the bot irrelevant to the server. That's why I believe that it's a bad topic. Even in a fraction server you can bot.. (and i hate them with all my heart those servers).

 

Maybe in a zone as the dark festival you could make them more useless but that is 1 place.. And it will get boring veeery fast..

[Blitzkrieg]

Like you already said, any group activities such as raiding / rift / sieges / etc should play a significant role in progressing in-game. This of course comes at a cost; what about the players who can't participate in such activities? Granted, L2 is not meant to be be played solo, but one cannot simply give them the middle finger.

 

Some solutions to cater more to legal solo farming could be the following:

 

1) Less open world. Community is gathered around few areas where a bot could easily be seen, identified and reported. The areas that are selected should be the ones with the important quests too.

2) Certain checks could be done in order to teleport to a farming spot (such as elven ruins / pagan temple, any enclosed area basically). For example access could be granted only for noblesse characters. Depending on the server's difficulty, that could be quite an achievement and therefore botting would not only be rare and but also very "expensive" if caught. The latter will probably work as a deterrent.

3) Running some PvP events where you can exchange rewards for some gear. Restrictions should be put in place because I've seen TvTs that reward afk players / bots, while the rest of the team did the work.

4) New custom items (preferably in accessory slots, not armor/weapons) could be farmed via quests, where the mats farmed are non tradeable. Custom items should also be bound to character. This of course causes certain inconveniences but I believe in the long run it's more beneficial for the server.

 

It goes without saying that server should be running a decent antibot that gets rid of most free bots. Also administrators should be actively hunting them and maybe even impose punishment to main accounts. They should also examine the reports sent by players and not throw them in the trash.

   

Edited September 3, 2019 by Blitzkrieg

[Tryskell]

15 minutes ago, LuckySt1305 said:

"Limiting one client per HWID and enforcing a single client launch on your system already cut all the lowbies botters."

 

Keyword: lowbies

Apart from that especially if it's a low or even mid server it's a bad idea. You can't even make 1 char as a shop this way. Let alone boxed EE or spoiler. But let's say you don't care for boxes" l2 is a team blah blah". What about crafter? Or free seller (low lvl chars have free tp etc).

 

Those are still ways to limit the bot presence and not make the bot irrelevant to the server. That's why I believe that it's a bad topic. Even in a fraction server you can bot.. (and i hate them with all my heart those servers).

 

Maybe in a zone as the dark festival you could make them more useless but that is 1 place.. And it will get boring veeery fast..

 

Going in that way you can say botters actually HELP economy on low rates (lower the rate, helpful they are - because the amount of mats they offer simply lower prices, making itemization affordable), and therefore they shouldn't be hunted.

 

I personally think the dualbox system is wrong too. If you want to make a team you play "Granado Espada" or any FF-like game.

[LuckySt1305]

3 minutes ago, Tryskell said:

 

Going in that way you can say botters actually HELP economy on low rates (lower the rate, helpful they are - because the amount of mats they offer simply lower prices, making itemization affordable), and therefore they shouldn't be hunted.

 

I personally think the dualbox system is wrong too. If you want to make a team you play "Granado Espada" or any FF-like game.

Imo allow full boxes.

 

And no bots don't help by lowering the prices. This "lowering of prices" is the actual problem. No point to farm difficult mats or basic mats bcz of low prices. And some users with "unlimited" scrolls and high ++ benefit un the end only. Which circles us back to "l2 for epics" or "l2 only for mages and titans and archers" which kills server time. Why should I farm 100 eaa in 1-2 days (in a somewhat easy searver) only for a botter to do the same while he sleeps? Who benefits? Yeah I can buy a dc boot+12 but as a non botter what do I sell? Epics?.. You see how fast you can limit server time?

[Mr_Zero]

Some good stuff is starting to come in, imo. 

 

@Tryskell

I saw a server where you could be online with 2-3 clients, but you could only farm with one of them, the others would not receive drops while the "main" client was online. I think that's useful. You could still farm with a single client and keep your box in town for whatever reason (or your summoner or w/e online). 

 

@Blitzkrieg

Yeah, that's a major issue, you cant hand out middle fingers like that to people who are solo or don't participate in group activities for whatever reason. 

 

I think the Nobless thing could lead to places with some tweaking and refining. Great idea, imo. Example,  as you said you set "Nobless only" quests. Limit these quests on how many times you can do per day (ranging from 1-3 or w/e) for each nobless character. These are your dailies. 

 

Most mid-rates set nobless to "last hit barakiel". This obviously wouldn't work since you cant block so much essentials for a player based on his luck, as the Nobless Quest-only idea gives new weight to being nobless. But yeah, invest in Nobless that isn't luck based and get access to "Nobless Quests".  

 

Example, TT farming (would be a Nobless Quest) could be done 2-3 times a day (just from the top of my head) at a high success chance to get a recipe.  Bot rogues on a script are no longer as useful.  

 

Things like this is what I'm mostly talking about. Instead of having to do that tedious quest 50+ times to get a set of recs, you do it like 10 times in a few days. That is really player friendly, imo.  People can keep farming these dailies after to sell on market for players who joined on a later date and wand to catch up, or people who seek to over-enchant. 

 

Something like Pagans could be restricted to Nobless-Only quest too. Once a day per Nobless character. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by mr zero